adam2
LER member1
Posts: 404 
|
Post by adam2 on Dec 8, 2017 23:47:51 GMT -5
It's apparent they weren't carrying rifles and I don't see any threat level. Like it or not, we all take some chances. So do those in other occupations, but I didn't see much risk here. This was an apparent routine call and the officer seems to be the dangerous one. Have you ever worked with someone who was dying to shoot somebody? I did. He would go jogging with a handgun strapped in a fanny pack. He didn't go to a gym to work out. He visited a gym to stay in shape for a deadly confrontation. He got his wish. He shot an unarmed motorist and killed him. Later he was angry he didn't receive a combat award. This video reminds me of our ex-intense and impulsive psycho. Unbelievable! |
|
realscu
LER member level 3
Posts: 1,818
|
Post by realscu on Dec 9, 2017 0:19:37 GMT -5
I’m always 100% in support of cops. This man was an amateur trying to do the job of a professional.
Glad he’s not in prison , but he screwed up in my opinion.
I’ll stand by my word!
|
|
|
|
Post by evp5O on Dec 9, 2017 1:10:30 GMT -5
The AR-15 used wasn't issued. It was his own personal rifle that appears to be built at home from various parts. There is an unknown AR lower with a Spikes bolt carrier group. It has a Daniel Defense rear sight and a Keymod rail system. I would put money down that the officer also installed a lighter modified trigger. This leads me to believe that his department had a very poorly implemented policy for this type of weapon. It will all come up in any civil suit.  |
|
PJ807
LER member level 2
Posts: 877
|
Post by PJ807 on Dec 9, 2017 2:38:42 GMT -5
This cop is a psycho. Flame me all you want, I dont care. 4 minutes into the job and armed with an AR he STILL couldnt determine if the civilian was armed. To me it looked like he's been waiting to blast someone ever since they gave him that cool gun to go along with his badge.
It kills me to say that about a cop, but this is just fukkin bad.
|
|
|
|
Post by dustoff262 on Dec 9, 2017 3:04:05 GMT -5
The AR-15 used wasn't issued. It was his own personal rifle that appears to be built at home from various parts. There is an unknown AR lower with a Spikes bolt carrier group. It has a Daniel Defense rear sight and a Keymod rail system. I would put money down that the officer also installed a lighter modified trigger. This leads me to believe that his department had a very poorly implement policy for this type of weapon. It will all come up in any civil suit. Great assessment. Policy is one thing. The decision to shoot is inherent with the individual police officer. In the NYPD, the most senior uniformed cop is in charge. Experience is the utmost driving force that dictates use of DPF. I could only watch the video once. I have a son around the same age. My only child, and he is serving our country during the holidays. He could have been either player. I feel a terrible loss for this young man. I'm not from Mesa, so the environment plays a huge part in a juror's mind. I watched for general compliance. I looked for additional threats. And as in real estate, location, location, location. This is where you rely on experience. Shoot or don't shoot, depends on a lot of factors. That squeeze of the trigger takes everything mentioned into account. You live or die on that split second. He used a personal, modified M4. He must have had the dept inspect it and said he was indemnified to use it. Mesa is going to pay millions to his family. The threshold of culpability is much lower in civil court. The award the jury gives will surely be felt. Tactics will be revamped. In an active shooter scenario, you take the fight to him and stop the threat. In this case, slow the job down and figure out what you really have going on. He made a bad choice to pull that trigger. With 2 M4s on scene, step to the perp and get a better look. 2 steps could have given the cop a chance to evaluate the suspect more thoroughly. Just a bag of $h1t all around. |
|
nypd2006
LER member1
THEE RANT: 3939 posts
Posts: 91
|
Post by nypd2006 on Dec 9, 2017 5:07:58 GMT -5
What a total clusterfvck. This is exactly why I disagree with the idiotic "issue a hundred verbal commands" tactical training that seems to be very prolific in jurisdictions like this. I almost can't even blame the cop, he's a product of this tremendous stupidity. His agency failed him and caused this disaster. Cops should be taught to put their hands on people as quickly as possible instead of dicking around for 10 minutes screaming commands (be it in a hotel hallway or on a car stop, it's all the same stupid crap). Issue minimal commands to freeze the scene and *move the fvck in and use your hands*.
|
|
|
|
Post by nuthinbutdatruth on Dec 9, 2017 6:41:31 GMT -5
It was an UGLY shoot, no doubt. I think, after the Vegas Shooting, with the call being unk. perp waiving a rifle out a hotel window (sound familiar), that tensions were high.
In my humble opinion, the cops didn't go to the perps on the hallway floor because, from the video angle, they could not see the Room Door. So they had the perps come to them.
As I said before, telling someone to CRAWL and not expect them to use their arms is DUMB.
Whomever conjured up their protocols for these situations needs to be walking a foot post forever.
|
|
|
|
Post by dustoff262 on Dec 9, 2017 7:19:22 GMT -5
It was an UGLY shoot, no doubt. I think, after the Vegas Shooting, with the call being unk. perp waiving a rifle out a hotel window (sound familiar), that tensions were high. In my humble opinion, the cops didn't go to the perps on the hallway floor because, from the video angle, they could not see the Room Door. So they had the perps come to them. As I said before, telling someone to CRAWL and not expect them to use their arms is DUMB. Whomever conjured up their protocols for these situations needs to be walking a foot post forever.  _A still photo from the angle on the left. Door is visible. They would have known the lay out of the location. Clearly can see part of the door. 2 steps forward and you get a better look on the perp and the door. Two maybe three M4s on the floor. They dominate the hallway. Take a little more real estate, and this kid would be alive today. Just 4 ft. more, and this article wouldn't be a thread on the LER. |
|
|
|
Post by nuthinbutdatruth on Dec 9, 2017 7:36:32 GMT -5
Ok Dusty, you've been there and done that so I value your opinion.
I was trained for Narcotics entries. You ESU guys would just shake your head at our 'tactics'.
It was a bad day for all involved. I guess a person shouldn't wave a rifle out a window and expect milk and cookies from the responding cops.
|
|
keltec
LER member level 3
Charter Member
Posts: 1,522
|
Post by keltec on Dec 9, 2017 7:48:25 GMT -5
That kid did not need to die . He is face down , hands on his head . Walk the fk up there and cuff him . Why complicate things with having him move ? Did any of you's get the impression the kid was a strong danger ? I didnt.
I have gone on plenty of "He may have a gun" calls , and there is no need to panic . All that screaming had the kid in tears . Imagine if your son was killed by this guy with his "Your fucked" M4 ? . The Cop sounded like a dick who wanted to kill him .
|
|
|
|
Post by dustoff262 on Dec 9, 2017 7:59:09 GMT -5
Ok Dusty, you've been there and done that so I value your opinion. I was trained for Narcotics entries. You ESU guys would just shake your head at our 'tactics'. It was a bad day for all involved. I guess a person shouldn't wave a rifle out a window and expect milk and cookies from the responding cops. I'm not critiquing your tactics at all. Please don't take it that way. Each unit, from patrol to SWAT is geared to take some risks at the level of their experience and skill. The officer only had 2 yrs on the job and that's not much experience. That's why I asked above someplace was their other senior officers responding. The only thing the video shows is the confrontation. I'm sure there is video, even from security, that shows how they were stacked in the hallway, who had what equipment, etc. The transmission tapes from the time of the initial 911, to their arrival time to the time the shots were taken. All this plays a part in where a senior guy could take control and slow the job down. There is nothing wrong with staying in place if you are awaiting a specialized unit, but if you are going ahead with taking perps in custody, then all of those screaming threats and instructions will lead to confusion. One or two steps to give you a better look is advisable. He's the cop, the professional, he can make his decision and be damned for it or hailed for it. Now, for our active guys, I pray for your safety and hope something can be learned from this video. Us retired guys weren't there. We just banter stuff that in a few years will be outdated old school crap. Be safe. |
|
|
|
Post by wobblypops on Dec 9, 2017 8:16:47 GMT -5
Absolute bullshyt. That cop had that guy terrorized to the point he didn't know what to do. With all that sudden screaming.Put your hands in the air and crawl to me? You do that and the friction against your leg immediately starts pulling your pants down. So the guy instinctively tried to pull them up. that victim had no chance. How about just having him put his hands on his head and face away and slowly walk backwards. im obviously not a cop but I've seen lots of cops handle much more potentially violent encounters without shooting. A bad shoot in my opinion. I thought you were a cop? What do you do, if I may ask? |
|
|
|
Post by wobblypops on Dec 9, 2017 8:21:04 GMT -5
Seems that they had only one officer giving the commands. That's the way I learned it. The problem is in the wordage... Crawling, by nature, means using your hands and knees to move. That's what the perp transitioned to. Knee walk would be a better word to use. Stop any confusion. Let me ask a question. Let's say I lost it and I'm the bad guy in this. I have very very bad knees. Even after being on my knees for 10 minutes scrubbing my floor they get bruised and hurt for the next 2 days. I even use knee pads while I scrub. I would get down on my knees and there is no way I'd be able to crawl. What do you think would have happened or what do you think you would do personally? |
|
|
|
Post by beachwear on Dec 9, 2017 8:39:07 GMT -5
If I comment on this shooting most people on this rant will be inflamed. So NO COMMENT.
|
|
|
|
Post by dustoff262 on Dec 9, 2017 9:02:39 GMT -5
What a total clusterfvck. This is exactly why I disagree with the idiotic "issue a hundred verbal commands" tactical training that seems to be very prolific in jurisdictions like this. I almost can't even blame the cop, he's a product of this tremendous stupidity. His agency failed him and caused this disaster. Cops should be taught to put their hands on people as quickly as possible instead of dicking around for 10 minutes screaming commands (be it in a hotel hallway or on a car stop, it's all the same stupid crap). Issue minimal commands to freeze the scene and *move the fvck in and use your hands*. Best post yet. 🏆 |
|
exfed2002
LER member level 3
^^^^
Posts: 1,410
|
Post by exfed2002 on Dec 9, 2017 9:10:45 GMT -5
The officer only had 2 yrs on the job and that's not much experience. . Just enough to turn your life into a turd. And an easy 242 scratch for the Bu....................... |
|
exfed2002
LER member level 3
^^^^
Posts: 1,410
|
Post by exfed2002 on Dec 9, 2017 9:45:36 GMT -5
Have you ever worked with someone who was dying to shoot somebody? I did. Don't forget the other type, the idiot who wants to get shot (but only a flesh wound, of course) so he can be a hero. I've worked with one of those, too. Hopefully it was just a joke, but you never know................ |
|
|
|
Post by 90xxxxx on Dec 9, 2017 11:02:01 GMT -5
That was no street cop I observed in that video. A street cop would have used those 2 "perps" to his advantage. After searching them, they would have been used to open the door. The cop that swiped the door with the key card was put in direct line of fire.
|
|
|
|
Post by 62a4rmndr on Dec 9, 2017 11:25:47 GMT -5
That was no street cop I observed in that video. A street cop would have used those 2 "perps" to his advantage. After searching them, they would have been used to open the door. The cop that swiped the door with the key card was put in direct line of fire. Dilly Dilly |
|
|
|
Post by dustoff262 on Dec 9, 2017 11:40:20 GMT -5
A street cop would have used those 2 "perps" to his advantage. After searching them, they would have been used to open the door. You're being sarcastic, right? I hope so. |
|
|
|
Post by ftbagel on Dec 9, 2017 12:58:16 GMT -5
We would have bum rushed the two of them cuffed them and stormed the room immediately end of story. I'm out sixteen years has police work changed that much. I don't get what all the talking is about. Clean it up and go on to the next job. I would never criticize the cop he felt his life was in danger. I just don't get the tactics.
|
|
|
|
Post by marineforlife on Dec 9, 2017 14:03:36 GMT -5
You can't put a rifle into the hands of a young man and expect him to make life and death decisions without proper and time tested training. Absolutely no control over the situation and an overreaction by all involved IMO. Screaming multiple and confusing commands along with threats about how they are going to react with force put the young man in a no win situation. I would never let my son work alongside that group.
|
|
capecodotj
LER member level 3
Posts: 1,019
Member is Online
|
Post by capecodotj on Dec 9, 2017 15:44:57 GMT -5
It was a bad shoot and the officer got away with it.
There is a reason the NYPD challenge of "Police! Don't Move!" was adopted. It tells those being challenged who is talking to them and what they are expected to do.
Disturbing video.
|
|
|
|
Post by 19pct on Dec 9, 2017 17:33:00 GMT -5
I have seen a few stories on this the doa was pointing his air rifle out of the hotel window that why 911 was called
|
|
cheswick
LER member level 3
Posts: 1,465
|
Post by cheswick on Dec 10, 2017 9:26:32 GMT -5
That punk MoFo shouldn’t have a dollar in his pocket for the rest of his life. He had that guy shitting himself. How many times did he say I’ll shoot you? My nephew used a hell of a lot more restraint than this guy did and that was after the mook had already stabbed a hat in the head. I didn hear him say I’ll shoot you not one time. He wasn’t the one who shot him. nypost.com/2014/12/09/cops-shoot-stabbing-suspect-inside-synagogue/ |
|
